Pretending perversion
2023-09-07 04:56:27 UTC
Beat the male perverts until they act like men. If they refuse, strip
them naked, throw them in with the male queers and let them get raped
to death.
In recent years, prisons across the Western world have been allowing menthem naked, throw them in with the male queers and let them get raped
to death.
who identify as women to be housed alongside female inmates, leading to
sexual harassment, sexual assaults, pregnancies, and complaints from
women both in prison and among the general public. These complaints have
been mostly ignored by governments and those with the power to do
something. That said, the policy in the UK was changed in February in
response to one high profile case in particular, wherein a rapist name
Adam Graham renamed himself Isla Bryson and claimed to be a woman in
order to be reassigned to a womens prison in Scotland. The new policy
prevents men who retain male genitalia or have been convicted of a
violent or sexual offence from being moved to womens prisons.
The US and Canada, though, continue to lag on addressing this issue, and
dangerous men remain in womens prisons across North America.
I spoke with two women who are taking action: Amanda Stulman is the USA
director of Keep Prisons Single Sex, and Jennifer Thomas is the founder
of Free Speech for Women and runs an action group called Get Men Out.
You can listen to this interview on the podcast. This transcript has
been edited lightly for clarity.
~~~
Meghan: I would love if you could tell our listeners a little bit about
the work that you do and how you came to be involved in this issue.
Amanda: Thanks for having us. I became involved in this issue in
particular because I have a background in administrative law and policy,
and because the issue of prisons is so distinct in so many different
jurisdictions. On top of the 50 states, theres the federal system and
there are over 2000 separate municipal jails.. County city Each one
can have its own, unique policy or law which applies to it. So I thought
I could be useful in breaking down what those policies look like and how
they end up applying in the real world.
So I worked with Kate Coleman, who is the founder of Keep Prisons Single
Sex. Shes based in the UK and we opened a branch of Keep Prisons
Single Sex in the US over two years ago. The goal of Keep Prisons Single
Sex is obviously to advocate against mixed sex prisons, and we do that
by obtaining data, gathering research, lobbying lawmakers and
policymakers, and trying to bring public awareness to the issue.
Meghan: Great. Im so glad that youre doing this work. This issue of of
men being transferred into womens prisons is so troubling, and Ive
been extremely frustrated, as Im sure you both have as well, over the
past few years that Governments in North America are really not paying
attention to this and really not addressing womens concerns.
Jennifer, can you tell us a little bit about your work and background
and the activism that you are doing?
Jennifer: Well, Im, Im sort of an action group. So I focus on all the
issues with that affect women, girls, and gender. I love working with
Amanda because shes so knowledgeable with the policies. And this last
protest, Get Men Out, that was an action group I started. The first
thing I wanted to do was aim at the prison situation because that is so
abhorrent, you know, and its so obvious that its wrong. But I also
diirect that towards the bathroom issue and other issues too Get Men
Out, Save Our Spaces It sort of covers everything. What I like to do is
read the temperature of whats going on and try to anticipate where I
will get the most exposure.
So thats what I do. I dont solely focus on the prison issue, but as
with everything in this issue of the harms of gender ideology, you focus
on one and the prison issue will lead you to the ACLU because theyre
the ones that sued for that policy to get in there. So Ill start there
and dig deeper just to try to see where I can get more action and more
attention focused on that issue. Ive worked with Amanda a few times,
Ive worked with Beth Steltzer from Save Women Sports, Ive worked with
a Partners for Ethical Care
When they have an action that I think will really hit the temperature,
of where I think Americas at, then I go full force. So thats what
happened with this Get Men Out action. We worked with Amanda and Amy
Ichikawa and we had a sense that the population was starting to be
willing to see this. This issue is such a violation were talking
about women in prison, were talking about really some of the most
vulnerable women in the country.
Meghan: Same thing in Canada. I interviewed Heather Mason a while back,
whos a really brave advocate and an ex inmate herself. Shes been one
of the only ones speaking out in Canada about this issue. Were talking
about women who already have almost no rights, have no voice because
theyre in prison, and theyre being housed with not just men, but the
worst men violent offenders, rapists, child molesters, and so on.
Jennifer, you mentioned that the ACLU was heavily involved in pushing
for this policy allowing men to be transferred into womens prisons.
Amanda, maybe you can speak to that a little bit how did that happen?
Amanda: Sure. On top of the usual ire one should feel for the ACLU and
their complete betrayal of what their mission is supposed to be and what
theyre supposed to stand for, I have some extra ire for it. I, as a
young adult in the early 90s, I interned at the ACLU in the exact same
program that is now their LGBTQ++AI when it was the Lesbian and Gay
Rights and HIV project. And to see them stray so far afield, not just
from the substance of this issue in particular in terms of protecting
women, but even on some of the ancillary issues. For example, they were
the main drivers behind preventing a woman from requesting public
records in Washington State. She was trying to learn how many men were
in womens prisons, how recently theyd been moved People were starting
to get wind of the policy change in Washington several years ago, and it
was the A C L U who worked with several inmates representing them to
fight the disclosure by Washington State Department of Corrections for a
public records request.
The enormous irony of this is that this woman learned how to make her
public records request from the ACLUs own website. The ACLUs mission
is transparency, public awareness, obtaining data from the government,
you know, the government works for you, etc. And they actively worked to
suppress access to data that would allow the public to learn the impact
of these policies, and they were so successful.
That they managed to work with the Washington State legislature and
actually passed a law modifying their public records law to exclude
disclosure of issues related to gender identity and prisoners. So unless
you get information directly from women housed there, which you know, is
incredibly dangerous and risky for them, theres no way to do it on
paper, publicly, directly because of the ACLU.
But getting back to the primary issue of pushing for this policy, the
New York Civil Liberties Union, which is kinda a local version of the
ACLU, I believe it originated with them. I havent been able to track it
back any further, but theyre the ones who have developed the model
transgender inmate policy that was enacted in California, that
legislatures tried to enact in Maryland. Theyre actively trying to
enact a version of it in New York state right now, which is even more
extreme than the version in California. So, theyre not only
rhetorically pushing this issue, they are actively developing model
laws. Theyre actively pushing for those laws and actively working to
prevent the public from learning about this issue.
Meghan: This is so appalling. I mean, for these kinds of organizations
to be fighting against the rights of incredibly marginalized people.
Its really mindblowing that this is happening.
Jennifer: Theyre acting as a legal agent of the gender industry. We
have to expose and fight the ACLU because they are basically a legal
firm that is pushing their policy.
Its not just as simple as just saying, ok only men and womens prisons.
You have to dig deeper. Im planning a protest in August against the
ACLU in Washington DC because, you know, we can at least go after their
donors all the people that think the ACLU is so great because they
protected the Nazis and Skokie and they believe in free speech and all
that.
The whole narrative behind them that theyve managed to hidethe new
narrativeis still believed by a lot of Democrats. And I think if the
Democrats knew what the ACLU have been doing with our civil liberties,
they would stop donating.
Would that stop the ACLU? No, because the gender industry would just
make up for that money. But you could see then a shift with the
populace, you know, a shift of awareness.
Meghan: Im glad that you brought that up, in terms of the donors,
because one of the major obstacles to fighting gender identity ideology
is that its infiltrated almost every single institution. Certainly
every single civil rights organization, reproductive rights
organization, LG now BTQ etc organizations. I mean, the reason that
theyre doing this is because theyre getting all this funding to do it.
Alternatively, you could look at it as they risk losing funding if they
dont push this.
Lets talk about that. Where do we go to advocate against these policies
when were dealing with these massive organizations and institutions?
And clearly this ideology has infiltrated the Democratic Party. It feels
so big and I know that people are getting really angry about it thanks
to activism, like what you two are doing, but it feels like a big hill
to climb. Have you had any successes? Or do you have suggestions in
terms of who might be a productive target?
Amanda: I have found that to be among the most depressing part of
working in this area, which is that there is not a single legacy civil
rights organization or womens rights group that understands this issue,
or at least, pretends to. Every single one of them has been absolutely
ideologically captured. So it really does seem as though either these
organizations have to be built anew from the ground up some other
version of them. Or its going to take what Jennifer does an enormous
amount of, which is on the street campaigning to bring awareness to
force media to pay attention to the issue and to bring it to the public.
We dont have the numbers in North America of people advocating on this
issue. We certainly dont have the dollars. The reason that the ACLU
changed the name of the program that addresses this is because they
received a $15 million gift from John Stryker. That is what led to the
change of the name and to their absolute commitment to the T all the
time and none of the LGB. So I dont think theres a good answer to how
we deal with the established organizations. I think people and
especially women like Jennifer are the ones sort of creating a public
groundswell.
Meghan: Right. I mean Im, Im verging towards thinking all these
organizations need to be defunded and taken apart and started over again
so that theyre not so tied up with this money thats corrupted them so
deeply.
Jennifer: The only real solution is the public against this, right? When
we see thousands of people in the streets, fighting against this, thats
when well see some change. People have to get mad enough to get out on
the streets and this complacency that theyre under.
But inevitably I do think we will see a ground swell and thats when
well regain our power. We wont feel so helpless because well look
around and instead of seeing 20 or 30 people standing next to us, its
thousands.
Thats how we know about Martin Luther King because he went to the
street. So its going to take that and its going to take an awareness
level where we just have to keep plugging along and hitting these
stories.
Now theres this new media that is hungry for these stories. Tucker just
got fired. James OKeefe got fired. Theyre looking for stories, right?
Because theyre going to build their own thing. So we do have this
interesting time right now where theres new media that we can tap into
that will tell our story. Its getting out more and more, but its going
to take work.
Meghan: So I wanna talk a bit about the law. I know that Joe Bidens
administration pushed through a policy allowing men to be transferred
into womens prisons. But I also am under the impression that things
differ from state to state.
I know that New York lawmakers are pushing or trying to push through
this bill called the Gender Identity Respect, Dignity and Safety Act,
which would automatically place male prisoners in womens facilities if
they identify as women. Im curious to know, first, if you know whats
happening with this bill, and second, if this is something that we
actually need to be fighting on a state to state basis or that we can
fight on a federal level.
Amanda: So the New York State Bill, as you say, presumptively houses
people according to their self-declared gender identity. And there is
such an insanely high burden and such a quick turnaround time required
to deny that to someone that the bill was clearly drafted in New York
with the intent to never, ever, ever deny someone. There are also
mechanisms built in for the state to be sued if someone is denied, and
to have attorneys fees and damages paid. So it is so unidirectional a
law, its a little frightening that that came about after all weve
heard coming out of California and New Jersey and Canada, to the extent
that people hear about it, um, the, the answer more broadly is yes, for
right now, this is having to be fought on a state by state basis.
When this administration the Biden administration came in on its
first day in office, it issued an executive order directing federal
agencies to interpret the laws and regulations that they have some
control over and that they manage in the various agencies to interpret
sex to include gender identity. So with one pen stroke on his first day
in office, he directed every federal agency to work through that process
for the Bureau of Prisons, which is the only direct mechanism the
federal government has. There are some indirect ones, which Ill
mention, but its the only direct prison system that the federal
government controls, putting aside military.
During the Obama administrations last month in office, they created a
transgender offender manual and literally chucked it in the air and
walked out the door and left that for the Trump administration to deal
with. It was a very aggressive policy. Again, not a federal law, not a
regulation, didnt go through any voting process, didnt go through any
public comment process.
It was merely an in-house manual that the Federal Bureau of Prisons was
expected to follow. It took the Trump administration two years to
grapple with that policy and try to modify it, which they did, in kind
of half-hearted way.
And then following Bidens executive order and a few other similar
executive orders, the Federal Bureau of Prisons again reissued the
transgender offender manual and again leaning much more heavily towards
a pathway for men to be moved into the womens prisons based on self
declaration. So thats what covers the federal prison.
The way that the federal government impacts the state prison system is
they have money and theres a federal regulation called the PREA
regulations, and it derives from the Prison Rape Elimination Act. The
PREA regulations provide and those did go through a public comment
period, but that was so long before this issue was in the publics line
of vision.. You know, it was over a decade ago, nobody was paying
attention to this Well, some rare people were paying attention, but
very few people were paying attention And through the regulatory
process, the Obama Department of Justice issued regulations that
contemplated cross-sex housing. The act itself did not. And thats the
first time in the federal legal system there was anything speaking to
even the concept of developing cross-sex housing. So what those
regulations provide is that in order to maintain full federal funding
and every state receives some in order to maintain that you get
massively dinged until you receive no money. Year after year, you get
successively more dinged if you do not adhere to those regulations. So
every state has to, at least on paper, consider housing people based on
their self-declared trans identity. So for a number of years, most
states were like, okay. And then went about their business. But some
of them took it really seriously.
So now a number of states have either laws or policies that not only
implement those regulations of contemplating cross-sex housing, but
presumptively housed according to self-declared gender identity.
Jennifer: And this is how the federal government influences states
throughout, like the federal government has the right the president
can come in and put out an executive order.
Thats what he did. This crazy executive order that virtually anybody
would think was insane, you know, prioritizing gender identity above
sex-based rights. They can come in and do that, and then they have this
mechanism. The schools are funded federally, so they basically blackmail
them into adopting these policies by withholding money.
So you think, well, why would the states go along with this? Well, they
wouldnt get their money. They even threatened the school lunch program
at one point with, you know, if you dont adopt these policies, your
school lunch program is going to be threatened.
Its a withholding of money if you dont do this right. So like the
universities that are, there are some laws in there, but theyre just
not pursuing them. These executive orders have a lot of control even
with Title IX. Amanda could probably speak better to this, but thats
why its being messed with, because its not, its not a law per se?
Amanda: Right. Just to clarify, Title IX is itself a law, but its the
regulations that theyre kind of messing with right now. And what
theyre trying to do is trying to apply what both Jennifer and I have
been talking about in terms of the executive orders redefining sex to
mean sex or gender identity. The reason weve heard a lot about Title IX
is they are going through the formal rulemaking process and putting it
out for public comment. They received a record number of comments, which
is really heartening, about modifying the language of the regulations,
which is where youll find all the meaty stuff about what you have to do
to get money if youre a state or a state entity.
Meghan: I want to talk about some specific cases. I believe that there
are 27 males currently being housed at Edna Mahan Correctional Facility
for women? Which was a central focus of the Get Men Out protest in New
Jersey last month. Is that normal throughout the states?
Amanda: Well, woohoo, now theres only about 10. A number of them
managed to behave so poorly they got themselves moved out.
About two years ago, we worked with Womens Declaration International to
do a statewide FOIA project of every state prison to try to see what the
numbers were in each location. Many were extremely uncooperative and we
were not able to get a completely exhaustive list. But there are states
that are in that range admittedly not many two years ago. I think
theres probably more now, if we were to circle back and do it again.
But even in states where you wouldnt necessarily think of it, theres a
handful.
Virginia had one for decades, even before this recent push. But a number
of states have several dozen. Obviously California does now. Washington
State is getting up there. Illinois numbers are growing and they have
neither a policy nor a law. A federal judge keeps putting men in womens
prison in Illinois. So its everywhere, though the numbers change. But
were, were only seeing them go up. Were not seeing them go down much.
New Jersey went down just because they had a kind of freak out placement
of men in there when they reached the settlement with the ACLU that
Jennifer referenced, and then they had another panic in the other
direction when it went so badly.
Meghan: And what are some of the cases like what are we hearing about
whats actually going on in these prisons? I know that when I talk about
this issue online, people will respond in these very blase ways. People
will say like, Well, you know, women get raped in prison either way.
Or they say, If theyre in male prisons, then these males who identify
as women are going to get raped. Or they say, Well prison is really
bad. And I dont know, maybe theyre just not able to picture the
situation and whats actually going down and what the danger is when
youre putting men in womens prisons. Can you talk to some specific
cases that have happened?
Jennifer: So when a woman gets convicted of a crime and the judge reads
out her sentence, he doesnt say, Okay, your sentence is possible rape,
possible forced childbirth or an abortion, and then possible abandonment
of your child.
We dont agree. We dont have agreed upon laws to cover this. The public
is not in agreement on this. Otherwise, that would be the sentence. This
apathy around it just upsets me to no end. I also think people think it
cant happen to them.
The fastest growing category of inmates is women. When women get
convicted, its harsher sentences for lesser crimes.
I think this sort of bleeds into that industrial complex. Like in New
Jersey they were making $61,000 per person off of their prisoners. And
women are easier to manage than men. Actually, prison reform is working
for men and not women. So men are getting shorter sentences for worse
crimes and getting out. They can add more to that prison population by
adding men. Right now, if Bundy applied, he would get into a womans
prisons. If Richard Speck, who killed eight nurses in Chicago, took
hormones and dressed like a woman when he was in jail he would be in
there with them. Theres no distinction of how bad the crime is.
Amanda: I think those are really good points, and I think a lot of it
speaks to, aside from the sort of disregard for prisoners in general,
its just treated as a kind of a throwaway population. But aside from
that, I think it is largely a misconception. This is a subset of, at
best, men theyre imagining are a particular kind of man or worse, they
think theres some sort of version of a subset of women. But I think
most people imagine that its non-violent criminals, that its men who
have had genital surgery, that its men who are on hormones, that its
men who are tiny and pretty and vulnerable. All of those assumptions are
out there and obviously, even if somebody is those things and not a
violent criminal who is tiny and has had genital surgery and is on
hormones, if theyre a man, they still dont belong in a womans prison.
But I think that is what most of the public imagines when they hear
these stories, which is one reason that its so important for the
stories and the names and the visuals and the crimes and all of that to
be made really right in peoples faces so they can see the criminal
history of these men. They can see what they look like, which I know
seems really superficial, That page on Keep Prisonss Single-Sexs
website that has a sample of men and their crimes who are in womens
prisons, I mean, Ive peaked people in 30 seconds by showing them that
page. Just the, the visual of is sometimes what people need. Like, oh,
still has a penis and is massive? Thats crazy.
Meghan: Yeah. And I guess, probably a lot of people Im gonna give
them the benefit of the doubt are imagining these men who are
identifying as women or trans women as being men who pass. So men who
look like women, probably men whove gone through all the surgeries
and so on and so forth. So I imagine that whats happening there when
youre showing them that actually these are the men who are in these
womens facilities: they just look like regular dudes. Like not even
trying to look like women.
Amanda: Or they look exactly like men who have literally put their hair
in pigtails, which is somehow even more alarming. You know, the
superficiality of it.
Jennifer: The women said in their letters at the protest that these men
dropped that act right when get into the facility then its a million
dollar baby game, you know, lets make a baby.
Theyre not acting vulnerable when thats going on. Its a complete
facade.
https://www.feministcurrent.com/2023/05/23/transcript-why-are-dangerous-m
en-still-being-housed-in-womens-prisons/